How many service animals are we required to accept?

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7 years 1 month ago #18391 by Megan
I know that we can't deny a service animal if someone has the correct paperwork, but can we say there is a limit?

I have someone who wants to move in with 2 service dogs and 2 cats. We have a 2 pet max and it doesn't seem fair that she can have 4. Although 'service animals' aren't considered 'pets', rather occupants.

So I'm not sure what the answer is. Does anyone else know?
7 years 1 month ago #18391 by Megan
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7 years 1 month ago - 11 months 2 days ago #18393 by Brent Williams
Great question, Megan. I moved this post to our Fair Housing section, and will send a note to Anne Sadovsky and Doug Chasick , who are better equipped to handle it!

(And a reminder to everybody here - this is not a place for legal advice, so we encourage you to reach out to your legal team)
👍: Megan
7 years 1 month ago - 11 months 2 days ago #18393 by Brent Williams
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7 years 1 month ago #18394 by Doug Chasick
Although there is no specific maximum number of assistive animals a person with a disability (PWD)can have, the main consideration with any request for an accommodation (or modification) is "Is it reasonable?" The FHA defines reasonable as "Not fundamentally altering the way we do business and not creating an undue administrative or financial burden".

If it were my community, I would send an accommodation request verification form (assuming the disability is not obvious - if the disability is obvious and you can see the need for the assistive animal - for example, a visually-impaired person with a seeing eye dog - you should not require a written verification) to the person's care giver/health care provider asking for confirmation of the the following:
1. The person is disabled as per the definition of disability contained in the FHA, and
2. The person needs the animal
3. What can two animals (or four in this case) do that one animal cannot?

I would do this even if the PWD came prepared with some type of written verification from the internet or from some other source.

Hope this helps.
7 years 1 month ago #18394 by Doug Chasick
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7 years 1 month ago #18396 by Anne Sadovsky
Put simply, a person can have more than one disability. For example, both blind and deaf, or mentally impaired
and physically impaired, perhaps in a wheelchair. So yes, there could be a legitimate reason for more than one service/assist/companion animal. Also, if you allow pets, with a 2 pet limit, you could have 4 animals in an apartment. As a reminder, assist animals are NOT considered pets and cannot be counted in your limit. If you have doubts as to the disabilities, or if the applicant/resident has a fake looking document ordered from the internet, you do have the right to inquire. If the disabilities are not obvious, HUD allows you to request documentation from a knowledgeable 3rd party/healthcare provider. This is not legal advice. However, it is my opinion that you may be able to require documentation simply because you see no evidence that 2 animals required. I also think that if there are more than two assist animals that you can ask for a document from a health care provider.
It will serve you well to be polite, kind and helpful. Please don't challenge people or ask about the nature or severity of the claimed disability. One other tip; call your local housing authority and ask them what your rights are when the number of animals seems excessive. Again, politely!!!
7 years 1 month ago #18396 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #26634 by Anonymous
You are not allowed to ask anyone what their disability is or their reason for an esa......
5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #26634 by Anonymous
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5 years 7 months ago #26740 by Margi Smith
Pets are not Service Animals. Service Animals are not considered pets. Check your lease language, your Qualifying Criteria and consult your supervisor or Fair Housing Office (Local HUD) if you are concerned or confused, please ask your supervisor before engaging with the client for liability and Fair Housing Discrimination reasons.
5 years 7 months ago #26740 by Margi Smith
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Anne Sadovsky
5 years 7 months ago #26763 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
I think we are good to go with info below....
5 years 7 months ago #26763 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anne Sadovsky
5 years 7 months ago #26764 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Ah ha...just seeing the rest of the post. Be very clear that any types of assist, service, emotional support animals must not be considered/referred to as pets. Yes, if you have a 2 pet rule and they also have 2 support/assist animals, you could have 4 animals. please read the thread below.
5 years 7 months ago #26764 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
5 years 4 months ago #29229 by Anonymous
"What can two animals do that one animal cannot?"

This is not an appropriate question and tenants are not required to answer it. It's also not an intelligent question since it's based on a false premise. The premise being that the animals are "doing" something. ESA's only have to exist to provide a service and taking one or more animals away from a person that benefits from them causes the same symptoms they're there to alleviate.
5 years 4 months ago #29229 by Anonymous
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5 years 3 months ago #29772 by Peter Dean
We have a current situation: Our tenant provided two letters from the same provider. Each letter says that each of two dogs are required for the same disability, emotional support. The letters are identical accept that they name each dog and describe them on each letter. On the one hand having two letters from the same provider seems to argue that he needs both but it also seems to show that they are for the same condition and that doesn't make sense. Any thoughts?
5 years 3 months ago #29772 by Peter Dean
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ESA
5 years 4 weeks ago #32250 by ESA
Peter,

I imagine that for that particular situation, the Dr may have one letter template in which they just change around the pet names and conditions per client
5 years 4 weeks ago #32250 by ESA
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Vicki Sharp
5 years 3 weeks ago #32494 by Vicki Sharp
Replied by Vicki Sharp on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
In this situation, I would contact the medical provider and ask if they did, indeed, sign 2 letters to state that the person needs 2 animals. It is my understanding from several attorneys that 1 disability = 1 service animal. Each would have to be a separate, distinctively different disability to qualify for 2 service animals.
5 years 3 weeks ago #32494 by Vicki Sharp
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Anonymous
4 years 11 months ago #33686 by Anonymous
Absolutely false. If the provider responded to your “verification request” they would be in violation of HIPPA. All you could ask for is a letter provided by the tenant from their provider verifying the need for an ESA.
4 years 11 months ago #33686 by Anonymous
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4 years 11 months ago #33746 by Doug Chasick
I don't usually respond to such obvious ignorance however your lack of fair housing knowledge is both stunning and dangerous. (although I sincerely doubt anyone on this board would actually consider fair housing compliance advice from a person who prefers to be anonymous). I'm replying to your last post only; I don't have the time right now to correct all of the erroneous information you've added to this thread.

We ARE allowed to ask a care giver if a person who is requesting an accommodation or modification if that person meets the FHA definition of disability, if the animal is necessary for the person to enjoy living at the community and what function the animal serves. In the case of multiple animals, we can inquire as to the necessity of each animal.

Have a nice day . . .
4 years 11 months ago #33746 by Doug Chasick
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4 years 11 months ago #33747 by Doug Chasick
4 years 11 months ago #33747 by Doug Chasick
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4 years 11 months ago #33750 by Anne Sadovsky
We gotta love Doug and his direct answers! HUD is working on a ruling to fine and try to put out of business the hokey "service animal on line certificates" As Doug suggested, unless you have true expertise on fair housing information, please don't post advice that will get readers sued!
4 years 11 months ago #33750 by Anne Sadovsky
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Jay
4 years 9 months ago #34933 by Jay
Many conditions have many symptoms, with many symptoms comes different needs of care, when one companion may tend to elevate one problem the other companion may elevate numerous others!

Asking for proof, paperwork or even insinuating someone with a service animal doesn’t need it is not only down right ignorant, against the law and discriminative.
4 years 9 months ago #34933 by Jay
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Anne Sadovsky
4 years 9 months ago #34997 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
This topic come up often; the answer remains the same. A person can have more than one disability, requiring more than one service animal. If the disabilities are not visible we do have the right to documentation from a health care provider. Be SMART! If a person is blind, deaf, in a wheelchair, on oxygen etc don't question the disability/ies.
4 years 9 months ago #34997 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
4 years 9 months ago #35681 by Anonymous
under the state law they can have 4 if your place is 2 pet max
4 years 9 months ago #35681 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
4 years 5 months ago #39042 by Anonymous
No you absolutely......, cannot ask what a persons Disability is or reason for a support animal. Visible or NOT. They are not required to tell you and you are not allowed to ask. All that is required is a letter from their health care prof that an assistance animal is RX. That’s it. Period.
4 years 5 months ago #39042 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
4 years 5 months ago #39043 by Anonymous
Thank You Jay!! You are correct. They cannot ask any questions regarding a persons disability. If they asked me, they would find themselves in serious violation of the law and in court.
4 years 5 months ago #39043 by Anonymous
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Kelley Meredith Lewis
4 years 3 months ago #40225 by Kelley Meredith Lewis
Replied by Kelley Meredith Lewis on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
We recently had a resident inquire about getting a service dog "in training" so that she can retire her current service dog in a year and make it a pet and pay accordingly. So, she is requesting us to accept a service dog and a service dog "in training" for a year without paying any fees.

I have never ran across this situation and was hoping for advice.
4 years 3 months ago #40225 by Kelley Meredith Lewis
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Anne Sadovsky
4 years 3 months ago #40230 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Not legal advice...but a 'service dog in training' really isn't a service dog. True service dogs are trained and around 2 years of age before they are put into service.
However I would tread lightly and seek information from your local housing authority or an attorney in your state.
A person can have more than one service animal with proof that each animal serves a different need per impairment/disability.
When the first animal is "retired" is the resident planning on keeping it???
Would it no longer be in service, therefore a pet?
Be kind and polite and ask for more information. You can require information from a health services provider as to the need of the animals.
4 years 3 months ago #40230 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anne Sadovsky
4 years 3 months ago #40231 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Please be aware that when a disability is not readily visible, you can ask if the in fact have a disability as described by HUD (any physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities) and if the animal in fact serves that need. You must not ask the nature of the disability. You can also ask for confirmation from a health care provider.
4 years 3 months ago #40231 by Anne Sadovsky
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4 years 2 months ago #40676 by Kelley Meredith Lewis
Yes, she plans on retiring the current service dog when the new one is certified and start paying for it as a pet. I will reach out to the property's attorney to see how we should proceed.

Thanks!
4 years 2 months ago #40676 by Kelley Meredith Lewis
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Bradley cox
3 years 10 months ago #44132 by Bradley cox
Replied by Bradley cox on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Is this true in all states, or is this only the state that you live in?
3 years 10 months ago #44132 by Bradley cox
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Anne Sadovsky
3 years 10 months ago #44136 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Bradley...Federal HUD laws/rules/guidelines apply to all states. They over rule any state laws
3 years 10 months ago #44136 by Anne Sadovsky
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I’m late but my input
3 years 8 months ago #45766 by I’m late but my input
Replied by I’m late but my input on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Service animals don’t count as pets so that tenant is within their rights to have 4 animals in said home. No matter who feels it is unfair. Many people with disabilities feel it is unfair that they have a disabilityso that’s not a valid reason to discriminate against working service animals who help that individual. Two dogs can be trained to do the same thing but in different ways. I have 2 service dogs and their personalities are very different. One is hyper and one is lethargic. I cannot handle a hyper dog in the middle of certain ptsd episodes but I won’t notice a lethargic small dog in others. Same disability but they are both needed for different times. Not all things manifest and express themselves the same way. Stop looking for reasons to discriminate against your tenant.
3 years 8 months ago #45766 by I’m late but my input
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Anonymous
3 years 8 months ago #45852 by Anonymous
A disabled person may have twos dogs for the same condition. A common reason is one dog is old and the other is young. The olderdog helps to train the younger dog to perform the assistive tasks. This type of training saves the disabled person a great deal of money in training as the cost to train a service dog can easily by $30,000 to $40,000.
3 years 8 months ago #45852 by Anonymous
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Julianne
3 years 7 months ago #46204 by Julianne
Do you really get paid enough to care? Honestly though. As long as this person is a respectful neighbor and keeps his or her unit clean, does it really matter?
3 years 7 months ago #46204 by Julianne
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Thomas Hawk
3 years 7 months ago #46793 by Thomas Hawk
Replied by Thomas Hawk on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
If you have anxiety disorder and complex PTSD can you have more than one service animal?
3 years 7 months ago #46793 by Thomas Hawk
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K
3 years 6 months ago #47074 by K
You don't get to make the decision of what someone else's needs are. Period. They may be an obvious need to you or not--it does not matter. If they have a letter for an ESA, they are allowed by law to have multiple ESAs. ESAs do not count as pets.
3 years 6 months ago #47074 by K
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Anne Sadovsky
3 years 6 months ago #47094 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
If a resident/applicant seeks approval for more than one assistance animal, the person will need to show a disability related need for each animal.
Please remember that if your property allows 2 pets (for which they pay a pet fee and/or deposit) then if the same person proves the need for one or two service/assist animals, you may end up with 3-4 animals. Emotional support animals can be a dog,cat,bird,rabbit,hamster,gerbil,other rodent,fish, turtle or other domesticated animal that is traditionally kept in the home for pleasure but not for breeding purposes.
3 years 6 months ago #47094 by Anne Sadovsky
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Michele Henne
2 years 10 months ago #54241 by Michele Henne
Replied by Michele Henne on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
As someone with a disability, you should allow the tenant to have the animals. As long as they have the proper documentation. As you state yourself, the service dogs are occupants, not pets. If the cats are emotional support animals, with proper documentation from a psychiatrist,then they are not pets, either, but part of that individual's treatment plan. If they are not ESAs, and are pets, there still should not be a problem, because as you said, your rules permit 2 pets,and as the service dogs are occupants, the individual has only 2 pets, the cats.
2 years 10 months ago #54241 by Michele Henne
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Anonymous
2 years 10 months ago #54242 by Anonymous
Even though the 2 animals are needed for the same condition, it doesn't mean they provide the same type of support. For example, one of my cats keeps me mindful and in the moment during a panic or anxiety attack, another one comforts me with his weight. They both assist with the same problem but in different ways.
2 years 10 months ago #54242 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 9 months ago #55572 by Anonymous
Are there any legal documents from the government ( I am in PA) that clearly state the multi esa animal need and the laws for permitting them in a home with proper documentation? I have read the FEHO-2020-01, and i do not see any specific verbage. Thank you.
2 years 9 months ago #55572 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 7 months ago #58512 by Anonymous
If they have the correct paperwork and it's justifiable I would say yes you're kind of stuck. I had an old landlord there was a family of three and they had three dogs and four cats all ESA's and she actually took him to court and she won because she was able to justify the animals she needed.

I have a couple emotional support dogs myself but what I don't approve of is not putting something down in case damage is done by a dog or cat
2 years 7 months ago #58512 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 5 months ago #60390 by Anonymous
But can 1 service dog in training take care of 3 individual people in same house??
Dog is in a muzzle also
2 years 5 months ago #60390 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 5 months ago #60393 by Anonymous
When the disability is not obvious, you can ask for documentation supporting the request for the animal. From there, you can reach out to the medical professional to verify that the documentation was completed by them. If the medical professional verifies the document, then I would let it go, and approve the animal. You also have the right to ask the two following questions: 1) Is the animal required because of a disability? 2) What work or task has the animal been trained to perform.

As a property management professional, you are required to provide, "reasonable accommodation". If the person has two pets and two service animals, and your max animals is two. Then the question would be whether or not you can simply accept the two service animals and deny the two pets. Is that considered, "reasonable accommodation", as you are allowing the two service animals. I don't know the answer to that question. Nor do I believe anyone on this forum would know that answer. Maybe there is a lawyer on here that can add color. In my opinion, the law on this is too ambiguous.

Side note: A lot of people are trying to get around breed restrictions and pet fees by going online and paying for service animal letters and patches. If the letter appears to be from one of these websites, I would encourage you to try and find the medical professional and reach out to them for verification of the document. I'd also wish you the best of luck on these, as it's often times impossible to get a hold of the medical professional, or you'll otherwise just get connected with the website that sold the letter.

*IANAL, the context above is not legal advice. Please reach out to a lawyer for information.
2 years 5 months ago #60393 by Anonymous
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Nathan Park
2 years 5 months ago #60403 by Nathan Park
Replied by Nathan Park on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
You absolutely cannot ask for paperwork for a service animal. You are allowed to ask 2 questions. Is the the dog a service dog required due to a disability? And what task/tasks have they been trained to perform?
You can ask the disability, can't ask that the dogs perform the task, can't ask for paperwork, registration, service dog vests, anything.
2 years 5 months ago #60403 by Nathan Park
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Nathan Park
2 years 5 months ago #60404 by Nathan Park
Replied by Nathan Park on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
It's a late reply but this is for whoever comes across this and needs it.
Per ada law, you cannot deny a service animal into housing, cannot require any sort of deposit or fee, or count the service animal as a pet. You say they have 2 service dogs, and 2 cats, with a 2 pet policy. With that being said, the cars are the 2 pets. The dogs must be allowed period.
I get it might not "seem fair" to you, but that doesn't matter. It's the law.
A person can have multiple service dogs and you have to accommodate every one unless it causes undue hardship.
Example, if someone is blind, and has seizures. They may use a service dog for guidance, and another for medical alert/early alert. That person can even have 3. One for guidance, one for medical alert, and one for early alert. Theoretically a dog can be trained to do all of the above, but it's not required.
2 years 5 months ago #60404 by Nathan Park
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Anonymous
2 years 4 months ago #60863 by Anonymous
I also have two. One is currently in training. They both help me with my disability but both do very different tasks. One is more a public worker. Gets between me and others distracts for triggers and anexiety. The other is a behavior disruption. Directed more towards making sure I don’t hurt myself in one of my episodes
2 years 4 months ago #60863 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 4 months ago #60864 by Anonymous
Actually. Landlords and travel (ships planes etc) may ask for a letter from the dr. I have 2 service dogs. It was for the apartments insurance policy’s and all it was allowed to say is I do in fact have a disability and that my animals assist with my disability. Other than that all that can be asked is do I have a disability and are they trained for tasks to assist me.
2 years 4 months ago #60864 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 4 months ago #61245 by Anonymous
Not true. It is against the law for anyone to get in touch with your Dr asking questions about your disability. Same thing for your Dr to give that information.
2 years 4 months ago #61245 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
2 years 3 months ago #61700 by Anonymous
In Oregon I only own one rental and I deal with that myself do I have to allow service animals or support animals what I read it says no I have to have at least four units rented
2 years 3 months ago #61700 by Anonymous
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Mam
2 years 2 months ago #63152 by Mam
Yes! Well said! That is the bottom line, discrimination and total lack of empathy.
2 years 2 months ago #63152 by Mam
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Terri Mcgavran
1 year 11 months ago #636680 by Terri Mcgavran
Replied by Terri Mcgavran on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
My ESA is counted as a pet slot? Are they not supposed to be?
1 year 11 months ago #636680 by Terri Mcgavran
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Melissa Favorite
1 year 10 months ago #637786 by Melissa Favorite
Replied by Melissa Favorite on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
My landlord said if my dog is an esa he counts as an occupant and only two occupants are allowed. They said he can’t be an esa because of this. Is this true?
1 year 10 months ago #637786 by Melissa Favorite
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1 year 10 months ago #637813 by Brent Williams
Melissa, that is insane. I'm not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice, but an ESA is absolutely not an occupant. I'm just floored that your landlord would say that.
1 year 10 months ago #637813 by Brent Williams
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Jimmy Crack Corn
1 year 8 months ago #638798 by Jimmy Crack Corn
Replied by Jimmy Crack Corn on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
want to know how to solve that problem? Just ask what their credit score is... Nuff said. as long as you rent to someone with a higher credit score no issues... I run into people all the time that say but my two Lizards are service animals....and I just say... thats fine then next thing out of my mouth is "Hows your credit?" Problem solved. Credit is the one thing you can separate the cream of the crop without getting picked on by the scammers that don't want to pay a pet deposit.
1 year 8 months ago #638798 by Jimmy Crack Corn
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 8 months ago #638799 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
I agree with Jimmy CC. Before you tackle service pigs, two lizards, even felons...Run the application first! Its okay to ask about their credit, rental history AS LONG As you are consistent. If you ask one, ask all.
1 year 8 months ago #638799 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
1 year 4 months ago #640982 by Anonymous
ever tell a landlord about the assistance animals until your approved and ready to move in . Even Hud tells you to do it that way as like above think there smarter than
the laws and rules put in place for a reason .
1 year 4 months ago #640982 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 4 months ago #640983 by Anonymous
No There are no limits .
1 year 4 months ago #640983 by Anonymous
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Brenda Bradsher
1 year 2 months ago #641402 by Brenda Bradsher
Replied by Brenda Bradsher on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
We have a rent home and an applicant applied for 4 dogs, which we denied. They then came back the next day and said that they went to the Dr and the dogs are not emotional support animals. We do allow dogs but there are 2 Dobermans, one Pit Bull and One Bull Dog. Our insurance does not allow Dobermans and Pit Bulls. I think this is an out. I'm concerned about how much damage these dogs will do to our house. It's a very nice house. All of these new laws forcing me to rent to someone that I think could damage my property is causing me to sell my rental properties. It had been a good source of income in my retirement, as it was intended. However, I do not need this in my life. Do you think not being able to insure the property will release me from the FHA rules. Most insurance companies will not insure these dogs.
1 year 2 months ago #641402 by Brenda Bradsher
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 2 months ago #641403 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Brenda...most important is to know your city/state Fair Housing and other laws regarding Service dogs and Emotional Support Animals. HUD has passed along decisions to local authorities. You will get lots of opinions here; but do your homework. Remember to emphasis that your rentals are single family, not apartments. Please let us know what you learn!
1 year 2 months ago #641403 by Anne Sadovsky
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Patrick McCloud
1 year 2 months ago #641436 by Patrick McCloud
Replied by Patrick McCloud on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
The underlying issue and why ESA's have become such a problem is the issue of "Proper Documentation". For example, to test the system I, in 5 minutes, got documentation from a licensed medical doctor saying I was disabled. I have never met the doctor. I simply paid a fee, answered a 5 minute survey and BOOM! I am disabled. That is the problem!

Look I own a dog and yes I feel a little happier because she is around but to qualify for an ESA I must have a "physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life functions." I don't come any where close to meeting that definition, but a licensed MD said I did based on my made up answers to the 5 minute survey.

I very much want to treat people seriously who need an animal but when I look around, I don't know who has a disability and who is just committing fraud.

Faking a disability so that you can get away with not paying a fee is despicable. That is no different than someone faking the need for a wheel chair so they can go to the front of the line a Disney World
1 year 2 months ago #641436 by Patrick McCloud
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 2 months ago #641442 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Patrick..thank you. May I quote your story in my Fair housing classes? Brilliant!
1 year 2 months ago #641442 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
1 year 2 months ago #641470 by Anonymous
What if the wording on the lease says "two animal limit" instead of pet, would they managers/lease holders be able to limit that way?
1 year 2 months ago #641470 by Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 2 months ago #641471 by Anonymous
The above question about two animal wording is in California btw... (Dunno why my name is anonymous, i entered my name into the name field field)
1 year 2 months ago #641471 by Anonymous
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 2 months ago #641472 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
No...Google your state/city laws on animals in apartments.
Generally if your resident has two pets, paying pet deposits/rent, they could become disabled
and require a service dog or emotional support animal.
1 year 2 months ago #641472 by Anne Sadovsky
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Paula Jones
1 year 2 months ago #641473 by Paula Jones
Replied by Paula Jones on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
However, you can ask the question what service does the animal provide? You may ask: Is the animal a service animal required because of a disability? and what work or task has the animal been trained to preform. That is all you can ask.
1 year 2 months ago #641473 by Paula Jones
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Anonymous
1 year 2 months ago #641528 by Anonymous
I live in a Florida condo with a one pet limit. I have a potential buyer with a papered service animal and one other pet. Can they deny them?
1 year 2 months ago #641528 by Anonymous
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 2 months ago #641529 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
No...Google your state/city laws on animals in apartments.
Generally if your resident has two pets, paying pet deposits/rent, they could become disabled
and require a service dog or emotional support animal.
1 year 2 months ago #641529 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
1 year 2 months ago #641530 by Anonymous
I live in a Florida condo with a one pet limit. I have a potential buyer with a papered service animal and one other pet. Can they deny them?  This is for purchase of a condo, not for renting.
1 year 2 months ago #641530 by Anonymous
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Kyle Harness
1 year 2 months ago #641674 by Kyle Harness
Replied by Kyle Harness on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Mr. Chasick,
We have a pet policy that only allows one pet per apartment. I have a prospect that has High blood pressure & Stage 5 kidney and she has 2 service dogs. She said she has 2 so one is a backup if one gets sick or is at the vet. She works full-time and the dogs are left in a crate all day. 1 has been trained and 1 is in training. Do we have to accept both? Thanks! Kyle
1 year 2 months ago #641674 by Kyle Harness
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Kyle Harness
1 year 2 months ago #641675 by Kyle Harness
Replied by Kyle Harness on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Mr. Chasick,
We have a pet policy that only allows one pet per apartment. I have a prospect that has High blood pressure & Stage 5 kidney and she has 2 service dogs. She said she has 2 so one is a backup if one gets sick or is at the vet. She works full-time and the dogs are left in a crate all day. 1 has been trained and 1 is in training. Do we have to accept both? Thanks! Kyle
1 year 2 months ago #641675 by Kyle Harness
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Doug Chasick
1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #641676 by Doug Chasick
Replied by Doug Chasick on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Hi Kyle,

Two issues here:

1. Any pet policies you have do not apply to assistive animals. You cannot unilaterally set a limit on the number of assistive animals; the number you allow will depend upon how many animals are necessary for the resident to more fully enjoy/access living at your community as confirmed by a reliable source weighed against health and safety standards.

2. It depends upon the verification that your resident has submitted. If the resident has submitted documentation from a reliable source that the resident meets the definition of disability as stated in the Fair Housing Act, that two dogs are necessary, then you should allow the two dogs. Your pet policy of one pet per apartment does not apply here.

Here is the most recent HUD guidance about assistive animals: www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HU...nimalNC1-28-2020.pdf

I hope this helps!

Doug
1 year 2 months ago - 1 year 2 months ago #641676 by Doug Chasick
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 2 months ago #641677 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Hi Kyle...it is correct that 2 dogs could be required if there are two different impairments.
However, if they are true service dogs they would be with the resident 24-7. You have the right to
require proof of need from a health services provider.
1 year 2 months ago #641677 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anne Sadovsky
1 year 2 months ago #641678 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Hi Kyle...it is correct that 2 dogs could be required if there are two different impairments.
However, if they are true service dogs they would be with the resident 24-7. You have the right to
require proof of need from a health services provider.
1 year 2 months ago #641678 by Anne Sadovsky
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Doug Chasick
1 year 2 months ago #641679 by Doug Chasick
Replied by Doug Chasick on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Darn fat fingers! That should say, "You CANNOT unilaterally set a limit . . . " Sorry about that; touch typing is becoming an adventure on tiny keyboards!
1 year 2 months ago #641679 by Doug Chasick
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  • Posts: 1101
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1 year 2 months ago #641680 by Brent Williams
Doug, I adjusted your original comment for you.
1 year 2 months ago #641680 by Brent Williams
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Nicole, Michelle Garcia
1 year 1 month ago #641793 by Nicole, Michelle Garcia
Replied by Nicole, Michelle Garcia on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
My name is Nicole Garcia. I have a service animal I’m seeing impaired and I have other medical issues. My name allowed me to have a dog in the building I was in they would only let me have a small one which is a sit shoe as in dog years he is 77 years old. Is this point I’ve had to retire him, but I am in desperate need of another service animal. They illegally charged me $300 for my service animal to move into this apartment and tell me I can’t have another one is this legal and do I have a right to get another animal for medical conditions?
1 year 1 month ago #641793 by Nicole, Michelle Garcia
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Anonymous
1 year 1 month ago #641853 by Anonymous
Absolutely, you do! It’s federal law.
1 year 1 month ago #641853 by Anonymous
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Curious
1 year 1 week ago #642042 by Curious
If the aminals are truly service dogs... Dogs trained for a specific task to assist the handler, why are they created while the handler is at work. Sounds like an ESA which is just a paper to get out of paying fees for their pet
1 year 1 week ago #642042 by Curious
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Sommer
11 months 4 weeks ago #642123 by Sommer
I just read through this whole forum and clicked on the link to the FHEO Notice: FHEO-2020-01
Issued: January 28, 2020 that was posted. Within that document was another link that took me to the JOINT STATEMENT OF
THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
REASONABLE ACCOMMODATIONS UNDER THE FAIR HOUSING ACT.

In case anyone finds this helpful:

"7. Are there any instances when a provider can deny a request for a reasonable accommodation without violating the Act?
Yes. A housing provider can deny a request for a reasonable accommodation if the request was not made by or on behalf of a person with a disability or if there is no disability- related need for the accommodation. In addition, a request for a reasonable accommodation may be denied if providing the accommodation is not reasonable – i.e., if it would impose an undue financial and administrative burden on the housing provider or it would fundamentally alter the nature of the provider's operations. The determination of undue financial and administrative burden must be made on a case-by-case basis involving various factors, such as the cost of the requested accommodation, the financial resources of the provider, the benefits that the accommodation would provide to the requester, and the availability of alternative accommodations that would effectively meet the requester's disability-related needs.
When a housing provider refuses a requested accommodation because it is not reasonable, the provider should discuss with the requester whether there is an alternative accommodation that would effectively address the requester's disability-related needs without a fundamental alteration to the provider's operations and without imposing an undue financial and administrative burden. If an alternative accommodation would effectively meet the requester's disability-related needs and is reasonable, the provider must grant it. An interactive process in which the housing provider and the requester discuss the requester's disability-related need for the requested accommodation and possible alternative accommodations is helpful to all concerned because it often results in an effective accommodation for the requester that does not pose an undue financial and administrative burden for the provider."

There are several answers to many questions in that document like: 
  • What is a “fundamental alteration”?
  • What happens if providing a requested accommodation involves some costs on the part of the housing provider?
  • What happens if no agreement can be reached through the interactive process?
  • May a housing provider charge an extra fee or require an additional deposit from applicants or residents with disabilities as a condition of granting a reasonable accommodation?
  • When and how should an individual request an accommodation?
For your convenience here is the link to this specific document: www.hud.gov/sites/documents/huddojstatement.pdf
And here is the link for the document that sourced it:  www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HU...nimalNC1-28-2020.pdf

Note: Even though the joint statement document is dated 2004, It was sited in the most recent document from 2020.For information on the types of housing discrimination cases handled by the Civil Rights Division, please refer to the Housing and Civil Enforcement Section's website at www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/hcehome.html .
 
11 months 4 weeks ago #642123 by Sommer
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Sommer
11 months 4 weeks ago #642124 by Sommer
Here is another helpful site that was sited in the document from 2020:
www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/#top

I have an ESA animal but found a lot of these to be good reads to help me be aware of Owner responsibilities that can cause me and my animal(s) to be excluded. Like this one:
"The ADA does not require covered entities to modify policies, practices, or procedures if it would “fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements. If admitting service animals would fundamentally alter the nature of a service or program, service animals may be prohibited. In addition, if a particular service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, or if it is not housebroken, that animal may be excluded."

Another good site form the 2020 document:
www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/

A note for readers of this thread: some of the laws and guidelines discussed are not clearly referencing whether application to an ESA Animal or a Service Animal. There are laws that may apply differently to them.
Also to property owners: under these laws, a service animal is specifically a dog. There has been an addendum to also include miniature horses. A cat cannot be a service animal, but can be an ESA. Also, the rules for these animals in public places versus residential facilities can differ as noted in Dakotas v. Goldmark Property Management Co.

As a renter with an ESA, I feel for landlords who have to sift through people skirting the system... It makes it harder on those us who really need it and leaves a bad taste to property owners. However, its also unfortunate that some property owners have learned to discriminate because of those people.

Property owners: please be careful with disabilities you cannot see. My sister is an example of one where the way you approach matters! If not done tactfully, professionally and within the laws, can lead to an episode that can end up in hospitalization. (Before anyone 'goes there' - we tried group homes, shelters and facilities, the bottom line is the resources are scarce and everything is full). Took us a year to get her back on track to semi self sufficient from that single episode from 1 very very not nice guy.
11 months 4 weeks ago #642124 by Sommer
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Katelyn
11 months 2 days ago #642345 by Katelyn
Good afternoon,

I am a leasing agent and currently looking for some advice. We have a tenant that has an ESA dog as well as a pet dog. She is wanting to get another pet dog but we have a 2 animal limit in our lease. It clearly states "No more than two (2) animals per premise"

Since it states animals and not pets are we in the clear to deny another pet dog?

She has clearly stated that it would be another pet and not a service animal. If it was another service animal we wouldn't be able to say no (or at least don't think so) but was thinking since it was another pet we would be able to deny.

Thank you in advance for your help.
11 months 2 days ago #642345 by Katelyn
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Doug Chasick
11 months 2 days ago #642346 by Doug Chasick
Replied by Doug Chasick on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Hi Katelyn,

Remembering that I am not an attorney, my answer is yes, you can deny the request for another pet since you have a two animal limit and the resident has two animals.
And yes, if the resident requests another assistive animal, you would have to consider that request regardless of how many animals the lease limits.

Hope this helps!
11 months 2 days ago #642346 by Doug Chasick
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Anne Sadovsky
11 months 2 days ago #642347 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
I am encouraging ALL of us to choose these words when talking about animals:
1. Stop saying' service animal' and instead say 'Service Dog' as it must be a dog ; under rare circumstances a miniature horse
2. Don't say /use Service Pet! The dog is not a 'pet.' Some residents, especially the elderly; say "My support/assistive 'pet' even though it has been approved as a service dog.
3. Emotional Support animals can be dogs, cats, birds, turtles, rabbits; any domesticated animal not used for breeding.
Our words matter. It lends clarity to choose words that don't confuse!!!
11 months 2 days ago #642347 by Anne Sadovsky
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Anonymous
10 months 1 week ago #642539 by Anonymous
Katelyn,
If the tenant has 1 pet and one ESA, they only have one pet. I'm not sure the wording of "animal" makes any difference to that. I would guess you have that listed as your "pet" policy. If they get another pet, they have 2 pets and one ESA that you would have to allow either way. Trying to get around it by calling it animals, sounds like it could backfire if the tenant tries to report you to the state.
10 months 1 week ago #642539 by Anonymous
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Anne Sadovsky
10 months 5 days ago #642551 by Anne Sadovsky
Replied by Anne Sadovsky on topic How many service animals are we required to accept?
Recently I began a quest asking that we stop saying service animal and to use the words Service Dog!
Other than the rare occasion of the miniature horse, a service animal must be a DOG. This could lessen the
confusion with Emotional Support Animals. As often occurs when a requested change is made, there
is some resistance. However, my consulting clients are using it successfully.
When pre-qualifying we have for decades asked "do you have a pet?" The applicant could answer no, then
show up with an animal. So today we are asking "Do you have an animal?" We can take it from there!
10 months 5 days ago #642551 by Anne Sadovsky
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Gigi S.
9 months 4 days ago #642859 by Gigi S.
ESA is not a Service Dog Fact# however they are allowed with RX Medical Script and and Doctors Note that are not from online, but a medical professional that has taken time 2yrs + to see and get a proper diagnosis that it's an ESA not a basic pet to relieve housing accommodations. I have two Service Dogs myself a Bernies Lab Doodle and Bernies Transylvania Long Legged Hound they have alot in common, however with the work load of my 5 medical conditions I can count on them I'm diffrent areas more so in accuracy with alert and so they don't burn out, it was recommended at 5yrs to get a 2nd Service Dog to help my 1st to reduce workload amd taking breaks for down time when I'm overnight at Hospital because of my condition this is possible then. They both alert, task, help me to negate, help counter balance, item retrieve, help lead me to safe area before a medical episode, cardiac alert by 1 bark, 2nd bark means I will pass out with higher potential of heart stopping and to get me medical attention asap. My Service Dogs both cost around 70,000 to train each and get and the cost to train shows the significance I'm levels of training when a dog becomes a Service Dog. While an Emotional and Anxiety Support Animal is not highly trained and not a Service Dog at all, they don't go through rigorous training to become a Service Doy. Each Handler can have more than one condition. Often they will have one or even two Service Dogs with a slight change in breed, even if they are a rescue to be able to get best in all areas needed to handle, negate and deal with their conditions to best of ability. Unfortunately people abuse their ESA as if it were a Service Dog get fake letters, certificate and registry online ID and those are all scams. They don't want to go through proper procedures and actually go in and deal with a medical professional for an accurate diagnosis of why you need an ESA and they count on deceiving housing with online-fake scams of certificate and ID or registry claiming it makes their dog an ESA or Service Dog...WRONG! Nothing online is legit it's all fakes a way to manipulate the system lie about their pet or ESA and pass it off as if it's highly trained and it's not. If they are not willing to go through an 'Proper Medical Establishment and proper medical specialists who they must go and see in person for am RX Script that is a legal forum of proof and letter from a doctors office that can verify they were saw amd and in 2yrs time+ a diagnosis was established, anything outside of that I wouldn't trust if they got it off lime paid for it It's a fake don't let them in as ESA need a Medical Documentation and an RX helps back it up and something you can call to verify as the office will have a number, address and email sometimes on the letter and that established they were seen and a 'proper legit ESA diagnosis was established,', instead of a fake online ID, Registery or Documentation forgery by scam companies who have not seen them as a patient and can not make a legal and proper diagnosis as they are not a M.D specialists.

In case I pass out and become incapacitated, and because I travel outside country though Handlers wit Service Dogs do not need same requirements compared to an ESA or Therapy Dog. I still have my RX Script and Letter put together by my multiple medical specialists with info on my condition and what to do if I'm incapacitated and that my Service Dogs must be with me in ambulance. I never have to show it, but it's there in case of emergencies. And an RX Script and Letter by actual M.D professionals is considered legal information and verified proof as you have to meet and establish the treatment plan and get proper diagnosis , something that is not able to be done online by fake Registry and Fake ID and Certificate scam sites. You have yo actually take the time and go in meet with a medical professional and get your info together, and the Service Dog is Medical Equipment and a RX script for that is Medical Proof and cannot be underminded unlike online scam certificate , ID and Registry that have never properly diagnosis you nor meet you to evaluate you and never told you to get an ESA , Therapy or Service Dog as there is a big difference.

Hope this helps.
9 months 4 days ago #642859 by Gigi S.
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Gigi S
9 months 4 days ago #642860 by Gigi S
ESA is not a Service Dog Fact# however they are allowed with RX Medical Script and and Doctors Note that are not from online, but a medical professional that has taken time 2yrs + to see and get a proper diagnosis that it's an ESA not a basic pet to relieve housing accommodations. I have two Service Dogs myself a Bernies Lab Doodle and Bernies Transylvania Long Legged Hound they have alot in common, however with the work load of my 5 medical conditions I can count on them I'm diffrent areas more so in accuracy with alert and so they don't burn out, it was recommended at 5yrs to get a 2nd Service Dog to help my 1st to reduce workload amd taking breaks for down time when I'm overnight at Hospital because of my condition this is possible then. They both alert, task, help me to negate, help counter balance, item retrieve, help lead me to safe area before a medical episode, cardiac alert by 1 bark, 2nd bark means I will pass out with higher potential of heart stopping and to get me medical attention asap. My Service Dogs both cost around 70,000 to train each and get and the cost to train shows the significance I'm levels of training when a dog becomes a Service Dog. While an Emotional and Anxiety Support Animal is not highly trained and not a Service Dog at all, they don't go through rigorous training to become a Service Doy. Each Handler can have more than one condition. Often they will have one or even two Service Dogs with a slight change in breed, even if they are a rescue to be able to get best in all areas needed to handle, negate and deal with their conditions to best of ability. Unfortunately people abuse their ESA as if it were a Service Dog get fake letters, certificate and registry online ID and those are all scams. They don't want to go through proper procedures and actually go in and deal with a medical professional for an accurate diagnosis of why you need an ESA and they count on deceiving housing with online-fake scams of certificate and ID or registry claiming it makes their dog an ESA or Service Dog...WRONG! Nothing online is legit it's all fakes a way to manipulate the system lie about their pet or ESA and pass it off as if it's highly trained and it's not. If they are not willing to go through an 'Proper Medical Establishment and proper medical specialists who they must go and see in person for am RX Script that is a legal forum of proof and letter from a doctors office that can verify they were saw amd and in 2yrs time+ a diagnosis was established, anything outside of that I wouldn't trust if they got it off lime paid for it It's a fake don't let them in as ESA need a Medical Documentation and an RX helps back it up and something you can call to verify as the office will have a number, address and email sometimes on the letter and that established they were seen and a 'proper legit ESA diagnosis was established,', instead of a fake online ID, Registery or Documentation forgery by scam companies who have not seen them as a patient and can not make a legal and proper diagnosis as they are not a M.D specialists.

In case I pass out and become incapacitated, and because I travel outside country though Handlers wit Service Dogs do not need same requirements compared to an ESA or Therapy Dog. I still have my RX Script and Letter put together by my multiple medical specialists with info on my condition and what to do if I'm incapacitated and that my Service Dogs must be with me in ambulance. I never have to show it, but it's there in case of emergencies. And an RX Script and Letter by actual M.D professionals is considered legal information and verified proof as you have to meet and establish the treatment plan and get proper diagnosis , something that is not able to be done online by fake Registry and Fake ID and Certificate scam sites. You have yo actually take the time and go in meet with a medical professional and get your info together, and the Service Dog is Medical Equipment and a RX script for that is Medical Proof and cannot be underminded unlike online scam certificate , ID and Registry that have never properly diagnosis you nor meet you to evaluate you and never told you to get an ESA , Therapy or Service Dog as there is a big difference.

You can say it doesn't seem fair, but what that Handler went through to need a Service Dog was not fair how would you feel if someone said you can't have your wheelchair as a quadriplegic and at the same time told you because you have medical condition you need a oxygen machine you're not allowed to have that either and they're two different items that are medical Necessities that is no different than telling someone who requires two different service dogs to help them with two different most likely conditions or help you with the counterbalance of workload they have to do for multiple conditions that they have no right to exist and they have no right to be there that's what you're saying you're under reminding their safety and their well-being because of a condition they can't help they were the born with or was caused by outside sources including people like PTSD and you're telling them their lives don't matter and are being selfish because they have two cats and they have two service dogs there's nothing selfish about it it's like if you have two medical equipment and you're telling him that actually machine they have to get rid of and they're going to throw them out of a wheelchair it's no different and that's selfish conceited behavior on your part by saying no one has it to service dogs and that's where your misconception harms handlers with service dogs and service dogs do get along with other household pets just because there are service dog they do also have to have downtime they're not a robot either. There's specific protocol and requirements of behavior and everything that is required for a service animal that separates them from Esa including Esa as cats and even if that person said my two cats are Esa and my two super socks or service dogs and you know you cannot pick and choose and then be conceited and make a comment like what you did that I don't think it's fair yeah well I don't think it's for that person's going through what they've been through and you don't even know half the shit they've been through in the bow they have to go through everyday just to function just to live and you're undermining that with your old that's not fair because yeah well it's not fair that they went through what they went through that they now have to spend thousands of dollars and in the fact of the matter is Service Dogs cost well over 35,000 plus to train so you're literally undermining the thousands of dollars the hard work it puts to get a service dog that they need so that they can have a sense of normal Senior Life sense of independency because the service dogs alert, negate, and help them with their medical conditions you can't see and just cuz you can't see medical condition I say two people like you I don't look sick and you don't look stupid but while here we are you're wanting to be conceited and title because I require to service dogs to reduce the work load on each of them cuz my service dogs for the fact that matter or $2,000 each and you're saying my rights that require them with your medical equipment like an oxygen machine and a wheelchair are emotionally offending you and you feel like I'm being selfish for requiring these dogs that I never wanted to have in first place but have no other option in order to in order to be able to function outside of my house inside my house and be able to negate alert and task and help me manage my conditions so I don't end up six feet under who's a selfish one here it's not that person it's you you're conceited when you say that they're being selfish for having two service dogs and two cats I don't care what your pet capacity is it doesn't matter it doesn't change that that person spend thousands of dollars for a service animal and you don't seem to understand that and that's your problem and that's what separates people are ignorant and conceited and selfish. Humans cannot do and see what service dogs can nor help their Handler the way a service dog, you can't do what the dogs do for the Handler and that's why she requires service dog duh

Hope this helps.
9 months 4 days ago #642860 by Gigi S
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